Melissa Talamantes:
No one deserves to be raped no matter what the flirting or provocation entales.Ricky Sung: The film showed the stupidity of the woman who was raped.
Sara Dever: Are you saying women deserved to be raped if they are in thast situation
Randy Samuelson: I'm glad I didn't say that.
Kent Park: I wouldn't go that far, but I do agree that she didn't do much to avoid it.
Katherine E. Braxton: The film showed how men have no respect for women. Don't forget your mom is a woman.
Ritu Singh: what could she have done to avoid it????
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Kent, are you saying that she deserved it?
Heather Leonard: If a woman says NO she means it . It's not flirting and it's not trying to turn a guy on.
Richard Vu: It really doesn't matter what the circumstances are when a women gets rape she is raped even if she was drunk and wasted.
Sara Dever: Maybe she shouldn't have been in the situation in the first place but that is still no right for THREE men to rape her while everybody watches
Kent Park: Katherine, aren't you stereotyping just a little. We men don't ALL go out and rape women.
Jaime La Fuente: I found the movie disturbing in the way that no one believed her and everyone started to treat her as if she deserved it. The movie did not did not show stupidity of a women.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: I think that she was a bit provocative, which apparently gave the wrong idea to those drunken guys
Melissa Talamantes:
No one deserves to be raped no matter what the flirting or provocation entales.
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Jai, what's your point?
Kent Park: Ritu, not dress the way she was, get drunk, and get stoned for starters.
Ricky Sung: no if she had made good decision than she could avoided the rape. It was sad, but she should used her head.
Michael Nunez: she said no when she and all the men were trashed,and she was half naked and dancing provocitavely.
Nick Hildebrandt: Both the woman and the men were wrong. She may have been excessively provocative, but the men were definitely wrong in what they did.
Kent Park: Zulema, No I didn't. I just said it wasn't very surprising that it happened.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: My point is that she was also guilty, and not totally innocent
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent,I know not all men do it. i just don't think men have the right to blaim the woman. Rape is the man's fault not the woman.
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent,I know not all men do it. i just don't think men have the right to blaim the woman. Rape is the man's fault not the woman.
Heather Leonard: Jai- just because you dance or act provocatively doesn't necessarily mean that you are that way.
Ritu Singh: exactly! provocation can be used in a hundred different ways -but it does not mean that men have to act on it. are men never provocative??
Ritu Singh: what is the definition of provocative? does it say to you come and rape me?
Kent Park: Katherine, It's not always the man's fault. Both should be blamed.
Richard Vu: How is she guilty. SO she did get drunk and wasted. ALot of other women and men do the same thing. Does that mean they all want or are asking to get raped.
Sara Dever: Kent in what way is not always the man's fault???
Nick Hildebrandt: Melissa, one has to remember that men have hormones and even though they were wrong at least part of the blame belongs on her. She did'nt try to resist until they had their pants down.
Kent Park: Heather, unless you know that person really well, you judge a person by how they act.
Daniel R Anderson: The tendency to blame the victim is powerful, but I think, wrong. A man was acquited of raspe in Florida, because the woman had on amin sklirt and was dressed provacatively. That has nothing to do with the individual reponsibility of the rapist. Lets use an analogy. i may leave my garage door open at nioght. That's a stupid thing to do, but if someone comes in and steals my lawnmower, it is still a crime. They are the one's who took it.
Ricky Sung: In most situations, rape are mostly, but the stupidity of the woman helps the situation to occur. Again, if she used her head then she could avoided it.
Melissa Talamantes: It was not bad enough that she was being raped on a pinball machine in front of ten other guys but she was also raped by two other fools that just desided to jump in. That was totally uncalled for and definately not her fault.
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent. how is rape not the mans fault, he does it?
Daniel R Anderson: Ritu, good point. men think about what they are going to wear bvefore going out as well. it may be a double standdard to expect women not to do the same.
Ritu Singh: excuse me- they were holding her down! when and how exactly was she suppposed to resist?
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: You might have a point there-heather. But, you cannot certainly say that she was totally innocent.
Kent Park: Richard, No but they are taking a big risk. Like sex without a condom with strangers.
Would you be surprised if you got AIDS? Zulema Marie Vasquez: Now, there are many women and men who get raped every day. They don't get raped because they are provacative. Rapist rape people because they are sick in the head or sexually frustrated or for some other stupid reason. People get raped because they are at the wrong place, at the wrong time, around the wrong people. It happens, rape is not provoked nor wished for.
McLain Robertson Hall: despite the dress of the victim there should have been self control by the men
Daniel R Anderson: I don't think the stupidity of the woman in any way alleviates the responsibility of the men. Stupidity is not a crime.
Kent Park: Sara, The women can sometimes lead into the situation.
Michael Heath Haley: Basically by saying it was both the womans and the mens fault, if a drunk person gets shot by another drunk man because he pissed the guy off, are they both guilty also?
Ritu Singh: i agree with Zulema. rape is in the man's head before he even decides to do it.
Katherine E. Braxton: Women do not pick out otfits with the hope of getting raped tonight.
Kristina Martinez: Ricky, how can you say that? She was totally defenseless. How could she be helping the situation to occur?
Ritu Singh: Kent- are you saying that men practice no SELF CONTROL whatsoever?
Daniel R Anderson: Individual responsibility comes to mind. The was responsible for her behavior but so were the men. The behavior of the woman waad flirtatious. the men violent. Lets jucge them fairly. What about the crowd and their responsibility?
Michael Nunez: it is sad,but lets face it,this girl was no cinderella.
Nick Hildebrandt: She should have screamed. The second she realized what was happening she should have kicked and punched with all her might. When the adrenalin is flowing, one can put up definitely enough resistance to send a stronger message. Of course the men were still wrong.
Katherine E. Braxton: Daniel, don't women have the right to flirt without being blaimed for it.
McLain Robertson Hall: Micheal what does this mean
Kimberly A. Rucker: No one can say they have nevermade a mistake. A woman would never intentionally provoke rape. For example if a man dresses in provocative clothing how likely is it that a woman is going to rape him?
Daniel R Anderson: One point that the movie fails to bring out is that rape is acrime of vbiolence, not sex. most rapists are angry with women and want to hurt them, this takes away from the arguemtn that her dress is pesponsiblie for the rape.
Kent Park: Katherine, by your definition, women don't take part in making babies. Because "he does it"
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: But Ritu, a guy is not going to rape a person just because he decides to, it also depends on how the woman acts, in this case she was flirting, which certianly sent the wrong message to those guys.
Ritu Singh: the crowd is always pleased to watch a show and to egg it on. it was such a public affair.
Heather Leonard: Jai- just because you flirt doesn't mean that you are asking for sex
Michael Nunez: it means it is sad ,but she should never have been in a dirty old grungy bar anyway!
Sara Dever: Nick-have you ever vbeen held down by somebody bigger and stronger than you and try to get away and scream???
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Nick, did you watch the whole movie or atleast pay attention. YOU would ve seen that she was unable to scream and push 3 men off of her
Daniel R Anderson: Lets say a man wears a red bandana and goers into a neighbohood where a red bandana will get him shot. It might have been a mistake to do that, but is he the one to blame.
Richard Vu: The crowd is responsible for what happened especially that guy with the tatto. He was totally egging on the last two rapist. The Frat guy by telling him and the last by making fun of his "pencil dick"
McLain Robertson Hall: Flirting does send a message but the message is not I want to be raped
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent, hopefully when I make a baby it will not only be him doing it , but me doing it because I want to not because I am thrown down in a back alley by some stranger and forced.
Ritu Singh: Jai- sending a message has nothing to do with rape. so you are telling me that the women was saying "come and rape me, baby??"
Michael Nunez: partially
Daniel R Anderson: Michael,. so it's ok for the men to go to the bar and have a good time, but not the women?
Kimberly A. Rucker: No man has the right to pin someone on a pinball machine, cover her mouth, and hold her down and rape her. It doesent matter if she was walking around naked, a man still does not have that right.
Jaime La Fuente: Micheal - thats like saying that if you are in a bad part of town then its your fault you got killed
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: Daniel, in the case you cited, the guy was stupid to wear the red bandana in the first place, if he knew it would get him shot.
Nick Hildebrandt: The audience was very wrong in what it did. Somebody should have the moral character to speak out against it or at least call the police sooner. Thank goodness, the one guy testified at the trial- She would have lost the case without his help.
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Daniel, to answer your question-women have every right to go out and have a good time
Kristina Martinez: Michael, since when does a girl have to be cinderella to be considered rape? It doesn't matter what her moral character was. Nobody deserves to be raped.
Katherine E. Braxton: Jai, what if he didn't know he would get shot?
Zulema Marie Vasquez: That's right Kristina
Michael Nunez: Zulema,so women should expect no man to rape them,and act as stupidly as they want?
Richard Vu: HOw if he didn't know wearing a red bandana would get him shot. Says he's from another country where wearing red bandanas is considered o.k. I s it still his fault he got shot.
Ritu Singh: i agree with daniel. if the man knew that if he wore a red bandana in that neighborhool if would get shot and if he decided he wanted to take theat chance, then who's fault is it?
Nick Hildebrandt: If someone does something not very intelligent such as leave the garage door open, how much is it his fault if the lawnmower gets stolen?
Michael Heath Haley: About the red bandana, that's a whole different issue. In that case it is his fault he got shot if he knew this would happen. If he wasn't aware that he was invading territory, then it is just bad luck. You're talking about gangs, and anything is possible when dealing with gangs. You cant afford to take chances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Daniel R Anderson: Zulema, i agree. I think that the movie does a good job of raising some of the points we're discussing. Equal treatment for men and women is one of them. The fact that she was drunk and in a dangerous environemntraises this point.
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Michael, they have every right to act any way they please.
Ricky Sung: I'm sorry that I offended everybody. She could taken steps of precaution to not be in this situation.
Kimberly A. Rucker: Miichael, a woman should not have to worry about rape no matter what they wear or do.
Daniel R Anderson: Nick, the grage door open is a stupid idea, but the guilt for stealing the mower still resides with the thief.
Ritu Singh: Michael- are you saying women should EXPECT rape from men?
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: In that case it might not be his fault, katherine. But in this case (the Accused) I believe she was to fault, since she lead the guys on in the first place. If I were her I would have been more cautious.
Kent Park: Katherine, If you were just walking down the street and the guy jumped you and raped you, yeah, it's 99.9% the guys falut. If you were stoned, drunk, and half naked dancing in a bar...that's a whole different story.
Michael Nunez: Kimberly,you are getting me wrong,Ithink it is sad,but she could have prevented it with a little thought on her part.
Katherine E. Braxton: Good point,Ritu.
Daniel R Anderson: Ricky, why should she have to. Do men have to stay home with the doors locked, because women might assault them if they go out and have a good time?
Kent Park: Ritu, she certaintly wasn't saying "get away from me, I'm not interested".
Heather Leonard: What should the fact that a person is drunk or not have to do with a law. If you drink( and if you drink in excess amounts) you are still responsible for your actions (even though it is difficult).
Zulema Marie Vasquez: Ricky, you're right she shoul've taken some precautions. The men should have some self control
Katherine E. Braxton: Jai, are you saying she was asking to be raped?
Zulema Marie Vasquez: You better not answer yes Jai!!! you might regret it.
Ritu Singh: the general idea is not that the man can act hust as he wants to but the women cannot incase she gives some idiot the wrong idea????
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: I do think so, or at least along those lines. Like Kent said she was certainly not saying "get away from me, Iam not interested".
Daniel R Anderson: Jai, I think the movie made a point of showing the woman lead the men on, because this is an important issue in many casesa dn a defense that is commonly used. if you told someone you wanted to get your hand cut off, told them again, held out your hand for the hatchet, then decided, NO, I don't wabnbt to lose my hand. Does that someone have a right to chop it off?
Melissa Talamantes: Kent-- She surely wasn't saying throw me on the pinball machine and bring your friends!
Nick Hildebrandt: Continuing the lawn mower analogy, the guilt resides on the theif but the homeowner will have a very difficult time proving who did it and getting justice.
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent, how is it a different story? Rape is rape no matter what the situation
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: Opps!! too late
Ritu Singh: Kent , when was she given a chance to say get away from me?
Kimberly A. Rucker: Michael, how can you prevent 3 men from holding you down? Even a man can not prevent that! Sure she should not have gotten drunk or stoned, but there is no way she could hve pushed that many men off of her even if she was sober, mabey one man.
Kent Park: Kimberly, oh give me a break. Woman should always worry about rape. It's sad, but it's reality.
Daniel R Anderson: Kent, What's important about the issue of being stoned etc, is that many rapes are associated with alcohol.Does being drunk make one an automatic victim and make it OK. From a moral standopint, someone who is less than sober deserves even more consideration from others? Not violence. If you had too much to drink, would it be ok for me to hit you on the head and take your wallet?
Michael Nunez: Kimberly,you now have got my point,I agree 100%.I just mean that she should have been more cautious.
Jaime La Fuente: kent, if rape is always on your mind when will you every have fun and be at peace cuz there is always men around.
Ritu Singh: kent, its your sex that makes it a reality for women. Maybe if you teach your son otherwise, one day we will have a society that does not expect a man to rape a woman.
Nick Hildebrandt: Katherine, Of course it was rape. Just because we know that doesn't mean the jury does. All trials involve a much higher burden of proof than we usually need in everyday life. What rape victims are realyy mad at is the fact it requires so much effort to prove rape.
Kimberly A. Rucker: Micheal, these days everyone should be more cautious, even men.
Daniel R Anderson: Nick, if there is a witness whoi saw the thief take the lawnmower, than proving it will be easy. Why should proving a rape be any more difficult?
Kent Park: Melissa, you sure about that??
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: In the case you said, Daniel, I don't think so. But if you use the same analogy with this film you would certainly not expect those guys to get off her now that she has changed her mind
Michael Nunez: True,Kimberly,true.
Michael Heath Haley: especially those men in prison!!!
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: In the case you said, Daniel, I don't think so. But if you use the same analogy with this film you would certainly not expect those guys to get off her now that she has changed her mind
Kent Park: Katherine, no it's not. That's like saying American soldiers are murders when they are defending this country becuase murder is murder.
Katherine E. Braxton: Nick , the only fact that makes me mad is when they are trying to prove not that she was raped ,but that she deserved it.
Kimberly A. Rucker: Jai, her mind was never on having sex with 3 men any way
Kent Park: Ritu, when she was still sober, not stoned, and dressed.
Richard Vu: Sara and Heather: we have to work on the mosiac project after class today!
Daniel R Anderson: Ritu, good point. The fact that a woman needs to worry about rape does not make it OK. Ties in with the point about her deserving it instead of dealing with the fact that it happened.
Sara Dever: OK
Ritu Singh: because rape is a moral issue as well. our socity does not even want to know is exists much less that its a fact. once the society faces this issues and decides to take a stand on it then it will become easier to prove rape.
Kent Park: Daniel, no it would not be ok, but if I was drunk, I share the blame for being hit on the head.
Daniel R Anderson: kent, the definition of murder is different in war, are you thinking that the definition of rape is flexible as well? others?
McLain Robertson Hall: isn't it nice the men went to jail
Ricky Sung: It may be sad, but its time for people to understand. We live in a era when crime oriented to the opposite gender is up. We should remember that males do get rape also. It would be wise that we take necessary steps to prevent any unwanted situation. A person should just be alert.
Zulema Marie Vasquez: I wonder, will all you guys make the same comments about a man who got drunk and stoned, then he was pinned down and raped by 3 burly women?
Nick Hildebrandt: Daniel, Good point. The emotions and issues involved make it much more difficult. It would be nice if it was as easy as the lawn mower analogy. Is there some way to discuss rape without getting tied up in the issues? The lawn mower analogy probably breaks down here.
Kent Park: Jaime, chances of me getting rapped is very low.
Michael Nunez: Kent ,I think you are confused.You share the responsibility,not the blame!!
Daniel R Anderson: Ricky, what nimber of male rapes occur,. isa this a real problem?
Katherine E. Braxton: What about the other side guys being raped.,either by men or women taking advantage of them when the are not sober. Is that raped or were they being provacative?
Heather Leonard: Kent- But what if it did happen ? would you be to blame? would you have "asked for it"?
Ritu Singh: Kent, why would you share the blamne of being hit on the head?? the word "drunk" does not mean please come and hit me on the head!!
Nick Hildebrandt: Jaime, I don' t understand your comment on fun and peace. Please elaborate.
Daniel R Anderson: katherine good point. Men? if your drunk and raped is it OK?
Richard Vu: No rape is rape. It dosen't matter what the situtation or the people invloved rape is rape.
Melissa Talamantes: three men were physically beating and raping a drunk, stoned , tied down woman while three other men yelled cheered and promoted a continuation of the violence What is there to prove that she was not raped.
Kimberly A. Rucker: It is quite a bit harder for a man to raped unfortunately, because then they would know how it feels.
Kent Park: Kimberly, there wasn't a think in her mind...
Zulema Marie Vasquez: As I asked before, would all the guys here feel the same if a man got drunk and stoned then was raped by three burly women?
McLain Robertson Hall: Kent what does that mean
Daniel R Anderson: I'm still wondering what the men feel If three men raped you and you were drunk would it be OK?
Michael Nunez: So I am walking on 6th street and I get shot.ITS MY FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN KENT OLD BOY!!!!!!
Richard Vu: People never expect to get raped like the never think their car will get stolen or mugged, but when it happens it does happen.
Michael Heath Haley: Someone would end up getting killed I'm affraid
Katherine E. Braxton: Kent, what if you were raped
McLain Robertson Hall: I would be quite upset if three men raped me Danial
Kent Park: Daniel, yes I do think definition of rape is flexible. Some feminazis define it as whenever women have sex when they're not in the mood.
Heather Leonard: Daniel- no it wouldn't be OK because they would be taking advantage of you when you are in a drunken state. Rape is never justifiable !
Ritu Singh: how is that woman supposed to live the rest of her life knowing that she has been violated in public?
Daniel R Anderson: Michael I suppose saying that someone would be killed if they raped you i,mplies that it was their fault and not your, even if you were drunk.
Jaime La Fuente: nick, i was simply saying what a life it would be if you had to worry about going for a walk down the street, walking to the park or going out to a party. you would never feel like you were at peace. Why should someone always have to worry. I was saying that cuz someone said that women should know it is out there and they should always!! be on the look out.
Zulema Marie Vasquez: yo yo yo yo yoy oy oy oy oyo yyo y o yo yoy o yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yoqqkjqfdjqharquiqq
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam: In that case, how would you expect a man to live if he was raped, Ritu ?
Kent Park: Heather, If it did happen while I was drunk, stoned, and naked...I would feel very very stupid.
Ritu Singh: I agree with Heather, RAPE IS NEVER JUSTIFIABLE!!!!!!!
Nick Hildebrandt: What is the legal defintion of rape? That could definitely a standard for discussion.
Michael Heath Haley: If everyone would just wear metal underwear with a padlock, we wouldn't have to worry about all this, now would we.
Daniel R Anderson: How many of the men will in the same breath say taht the woman is also at fault and that it would be oK to rape them if they were drunk
Kent Park: Ritu, yes, but I didn't do anything to avoid it.
Michael Nunez: SO,BASICALLY YOU DO NOT OPPOSE RAPE,KENT! SHE WAS IN THE MOOD!I KNOW SHE WAS!WHAT A CROCK OF SH!@#@@!!
Ritu Singh: MIchael you mean men too right???
Michael Heath Haley: IT WAS NOT THE WOMANS FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard Vu: No . People would just start carrying around blow trochers and lock picking kits with them.
Kent Park: Michael, if you were drunk off your a... then you share the blame.
Katherine E. Braxton: Well, I am glad to see that not all the men in this class are scum. It is never the women's fault
Sara Dever: Kent do you really feel thisd way or are you just looking to piss people off???
Kimberly A. Rucker: Everone has the right to get drunk off their a...
Ritu Singh: thank you michael, that's what half this class has been trying to point out the whole time.
Michael Nunez: WRONG,BOY! I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE RESPONSIBLE,BUT I AM NOT TO BLAME!
Zulema Marie Vasquez: It's 9 till 10
Kent Park: Michael Michale Michael...yes I oppose rape, but it's not always 100% guys falut.
Ritu Singh: Kent, i think we need to have a serios discussion .
Daniel R Anderson: kent, I still don't know if I agree with your point about beinmg drunk making one repsonisible. I think that it is an important issue, especcially if we look at indivudual reposnsibilty for the rape. I do not think, however that the crimes, if you can call them taht, drrunkeness and rape are the same. They may both have made mistakes, but this does not allebviate the guilt of the rapuists.
Nick Hildebrandt: Katherine, don't ever generalize especially with emotional issues.
Michael Heath Haley: Why Mr. Nunez, did you do something we don't know about?
Ricky Sung: In this situation, face the facts that woman have some faults. it may the fault of not acting responsibility.
Richard Vu: Getting drunk of their a... is a rite of passage that everbody does especially here at college but it doesen't mean you want to get raped
Michael Nunez: AMEN RICHARD! p.s=3+3+3=9
Kent Park: Sara, ???
