There has been considerable debate about Ebonics among teachers of English. One of the key issues is whether or not it does a disservice to students to A) either make them struggle with a language that is in many ways a foreign tongue to that that is used most often by them, or B) not force students to learn the standard English so that they will be competent with the language of business and education.
What are the merits and problems of these two perspectives? Also, what is standard English and what is problematic about trying to establish standards?
Mandy Fuerst:
Since English is by far this country's most popular language, people living and working here should learn and be proficient in reading and writing the language.
Daniel Anderson:
How many of you are familiar with the term "cultural literacy?" It tries to define the key elements of our culture and make a list of things that everyone should know. Does anyone see any benefits or problems with this approach?
Amy Dickson:
it seems as though people today are leading to one uniform language, especially with the internet. so maybe ebonics is along the same lines. Just trying to make one language which integrates all cultures.
Daniel Anderson:
Mandy, I think you are right that English is the most popular, but for some, the process of learning it may be helped by starting with something that is more familiar.
Jeremy Fleishman:
OK...a)ebonics is a sick joke that only makes fun of another race, b)people need to learn modern english in order to survive in a business world.
Portia Rosiere:
The merit is in realizing these students need help in learning American English. This is necessary for them to sound professional if they want to obtain a good job.
Danae Dietiker:
I think one problem with children being taught the Ebonics language is that no college acknowledges this language. The children are at a disadvantage when they try to apply for college and can't speak English.
Daniel Anderson:
Another problem with the idea that the most popular is the best is the suggestion that the most popular really represents everyone. For many years, standard english required that every person referred to in a sentence by a "he" or a "him." What about the other fifty percent of the population?
Michael Yeh:
Amy: you can still use the internet (although) it may be mainly english, but I
can use phonics like ni-how-mah (how are you? in Chinese.
Nathan Zumwalt:
I think that it would be more of a disservice to students if we didn't teach them standard English. When you're out in the business world or any other job, you are judged by how well you communicate.
Jeremy Fleishman:
A problem with cultural literacy is that you cannot define a culture or a language...ESPECIALLY one arising from such a mix of people, cultures, and cuntries.
Jessica Marcoux:
I think the standards for English in schools has for the most part stayed the same over time. I see the ebonics debate in this way;
School is not the only place you learn, you also learn from your family and from society/culture. Learning "traditional" English for the most part is done in the schools. Learning the meanings of your "regional" language, I think, should be a function of your culture/society, not of public schools.
Mandy Fuerst:
There are major benefits to "cultural literacy" in that key aspects of culture would be learned by everyone and make for a learned society. This, however, should be done in schools, not after the fact, and people should basically be exposed to all of these key elements. We cannot force everyone to thoroughly know everything on the list.
Daniel Anderson:
Amy, what do you have in mind by a unification? Would it be a language that includes inner-city dialects? What about southern dialects? What about computer geekspeak? I like the idea of inclusiveness, but does it not also have some problems?
Daniel Anderson:
Jeremy, how does ebonics make fun of another race?
Amy Dickson:
in the school systems it may be beneficial to have some sort of intermediate language. it is a huge step for some students who have english as a second language to understand anything in the classroom, it may not have been thier choice to move here in the first place, the least we could do is make the transition easier and expect more from them when they can give it.
Jeremy Fleishman:
Dan, it doesn't directly....just imagine an ebonics classroom : a teacher WELL aquanted with modern english, trying to teach a class that knows more about ebonics than the teacher....that's the joke
Maria Olin:
The first perspective has its merits in realizing that these children are growing up learning a different dialect and that that should be taken into consideration when teaching them. However, the problem I see with Ebonics is that it does ignore the need for these kids to learn standard English. The African American population already feels alienated from the mainstream white society. Won't this only further the division and make it hard for them to have successful careers that work with people of all cultures.
Portia Rosiere:
Daniel in responce to your responce to amy, Yes people from the south speak very different from those in New York, but we do not realize each one of those accents like a different language.
Shannon Miller:
It is difficult to establish a standarized English language, but I feel it is necessary. The basic English classes teach the same grammer rules, ect. and I feel this should continue. Even though these students talk in Ebonics, they should have to learn standard English because they will not live in the same area their entire life. It will make the students struggle in the business world if they are not able to communicate properly. They may have to struggle to learn standard English rules, but in the long run it will be worth the effort. I feel it is an enormous disservice to students to teach Ebonics.
Jeremy Fleishman:
also, have you seen the paper lately? I havn't yet seen a positive ebonics cartoon, or an article praising the usefulness of an ebonics society
Kai-Yu Han:
Since we are in America, we should learn the standard American English. Even though it's difficult to change at the first time, if the teachers help them to correct tongue, they will be successful.
Nathan Zumwalt:
I agree with Jessica, you learn about your culture from your family, friends and surroundings. At school you are educated so that you can make a living, and better yourself. Your culture will always be your own.
Daniel Anderson:
Let me give you an example of how odd the call to learn professional/modern/satandard english might be. What if I said eveyone in an English class should learn to speak like a professional academic. I'd ask you to write papers that begin by taking about the "cultural emperitives of privileges groups and the possible elision of sub voices which might resist the metanarrative of hegemonic discourse which has been constructed around and implicit acceptatnce of linguistically constructed consciousness." It is crucial that you all write papers that articulate your postions in terms of the centric culture and the metanarrative of the framgmented self. How odd is that?
Amy Dickson:
inclusive classrooms will always have problems, i'm not saying that ebonics is the solution , but maybe it will be a link between cultures on which we can build
Mandy Fuerst:
I agree with Danae that becoming proficient in the Ebonics language is of no benefit in college because colleges do not recognize this language. If, however, Ebonics was a way for someone to become proficient in English, then the language does have value.
Chris Radebaugh:
The fact that ebonics is even being considered as a language in itself
is a travesty. An inner-city slang that has developed out of the refusal
to adhear to any standardized form of communication is not only a disservice to the english language, it is a disservice to the American
public. It is a clear message that is being sent to many correctly speaking
americans that there exists a certain portion of society that refuses to
accept any sort of rational means by which we should interact.
Jeremy Fleishman:
pretty odd dan, but if that's how it goes to get an "A" in this class...I say we all adapt, maybe learn some new vocab. too.
Jeremy Fleishman:
Actually dan, it would be better if you made us write the paper in EBONICS, that might be more appropriate, homes.
Daniel Anderson:
Nathan and Jessica, Many would claim that the culture which has developed and supported standard english is based on ideals that we might want to question. Standard English gives the impression that it is a very organized, rule-driven system which must be conformed with. What does this say about the people who make up the majortity of standard english speakers? IF you want to be in the club, play by the rules, even if those rules go against your own feelings or culture.
Nathan Zumwalt:
Could that really be considered a separate language, Daniel. I mean, you still have the same rules for forming sentences, etc. The only difference is the over-blown vocab. Wouldn't Ebonics entail a more fundamental shift in how students speak the language?
Maria Olin:
Daniel:
May I ask a question. There seems to be some confusion in our discussion here on our topic. Is Ebonics a language that the schools are going to teach or just a definition of another language that exists used to justify teaching these students standard English as a second language? There is quite a distinction between these two ideas, and I'm not informed enough about this to know which we are talking about.
Portia Rosiere:
The fact is that even though they speak differently, it is still english and it doesn't deserve to be treated like a seperate language.
Daniel Anderson:
Jeremy, I admire the dedication to adapting to the system, but doesn't this train people to accept tha status quo without question. Why should people learn to speak with such gobbledygook?
Judd Gilbert:
I was just thinking that the english language changes everyday. I think most changes are brought about by industry and commerce, but can be changed by social society as well. I don't bremember the guys name, but the dude who created the first english dictionary had some views about how language changed. He built the dictionary to try and preserve the kings english. Good thing it didn't work or we all would still be using words like "thou" and referring to women as "hens" and such.
Daniel Anderson:
Maria, good question about clarification. I dont' think people want to replace standard english with ebonics. Rather,--as you say-- they want to make clear the idea that standard english is a foreign tongue to many people and treating it as such will be a more honest way of helping students learn.
Jeremy Fleishman:
Yes, it does make people accept status quo...but theoretically, if i were to write your paper using modern english instead of using the guidelines, what would be the outcome? Isn't the same true for society?
Jessica Marcoux:
In response to Amy:
It seems that around the world, English is becoming the unified language. It also seems that one characteristic that distinguishes cultures is their different languages. If schools wanted to focus on different cultural aspects
then Ebonics wouldn't be a problem. But as a product of the public education system, my opinion says they want us all to be the same.
Nathan Zumwalt:
There are many different dialects of English out there, and there always will be. When my grandparents come to visit from Iowa, I sometimes don't understand some of the phases they use. I just don't think that we should let one of these dialects be taught in schools. If we did, what about the millions of others out there?
Daniel Anderson:
Judd, good point. Really there is no such thing as standard english, because every situation places different demands on speach. Language is constantly shifting and who is to say that a shift toward more vernacular speech wouldn't be a good thing?
Jeremy Fleishman:
I agree that students should learn to speak english properly. I think ebonics is a step in the right direction, at the very least, it opened our eyes to the problems. However, it is by no means a solution.
Mandy Fuerst:
Of course language constantly shifts and changes, just like most other things in our society. Language adapts to changing times.
Judd Gilbert:
Vernacular. Hmmm. got a dictionary?
Shannon Miller:
I feel that because Ebonics is not recognized by colleges that it should not be the sole means of teaching English. Maybe it could just be an elective credit. Students who struggle with English could then take Ebonics along with a standarized English class to help them. This way if the a shift towards a "more vernacular speech" occured it would not be so sudden and people could gradually change their speech patterns.
Daniel Anderson:
Jeremy, you seem to be taking a pragmatic approach, which is good. The idea that speaking in vernacular would take you very far in a corporate boardroom is obviously bogus. But I think one point is that just how bogus this is speaks to how bogus some of the other claims about our society can be. Take for example, the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity. If you are raised in a culture and family that speaks standard english you have an obvious advantage over someone who isn't familiar with them. The real point is for those who would say, "well, just learn the standard english" and you'll be able to compete in our culture at large and everything will be hunky dory." It just isn't that simple. Claims that suggest it is merely a matter of learning the accepted culture--like taking a pill--overlook a lot of other factors.
Kai-Yu Han:
I agree with Nathan. When I first came, sometimes I can't understand some phrases the texan said. I believe if I go to other states, I will have the problem understanding.
Daniel Anderson:
Jessica, I think your observation about the global implications of this debate are right on. But I also thing that the colplexities about one culture superseding another are as real in global terms as they are in the US
Danae Dietiker:
I agree with Nathan. There are many different dialects in the United States, but they are not taught in school as a separate language. Ebonics is just another dialect and should not be taught in schools.
Ellen Lin:
Shannon:
When you said "students struggled with English", who were you referring to? If you were referring to immigrants, then I don't see how taking Ebonics class would help them learn standard English.
Daniel Anderson:
Nathan, good point about the fundamental shift. One thing that would remain the same, I think, however, is the adherence to rules. It wouldn''t just be anything goes. Rather, now we are going to look at this system as a possible way of communicating.
Jeremy Fleishman:
Equal opportunity (like you said) might be another joke, and ebonics might be helpful as a tool to aid the teaching of students less fortunate than ourselves, but how does teaching students how to speak slang of a specific culture help them? After ebonics will there be Cajonics?
Chris Radebaugh:
I agree with Jeremy-a little. I too feel that students need to learn to
speak proper english. To sound educated, especially in an academic environment, this is crutial. I dissagree that ebonics is in any way a step
in the right direction. Maybe it has opened our eyes-yes, to the realization
that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. There must be a standard
means by which americans communicate. Standard english. While many
opponents of this idea have stated that there is no 'standard' that exists,
they have failed to remember the hours upon hours that they must have spent in primary education learning rules for nouns, verbs, etc. Yes, there
is no sign on the wall of Parlin, nor is there a refernce book in the library
that states these standards, but a common ground by which english is communicated is present.
Ellen Williams:
In recognizing Ebonics as a dialect, people who speak it have now been recognized as well instead of discounted. As for making students struggle with this so-called foreign tongue, I see a two way street. What about those who speak Ebonics that have been forced to struggle in an English only environment? These people can now be free to express themselves in their native language. English speaking students are likely to have some grasp of Ebonics through friends and their environments so although they may not usually use Ebonics, they probably understand at least some of it. Even if this is not true, and students do struggle with this dialect, they will perhaps be more understanding of what Ebonics speakers must deal with in an English world.
The second perspective which says by not having to learn standard English students will have competency problems in business and education is a realistic concern that troubles me. On one hand, I can see the benefits of requiring students to learn standard English. I could argue for a more diverse America in terms of language but the fact is that Americans seem very complacant with their beloved English and have no motivation to learn other languages just to make room for more competition. I can more easily see a business person telling an Ebonics speaker to learn English than I can see him/her studying Ebonics.
Jessica Marcoux:
Dan, I'm not sure if you are saying it's good or bad or both or neither. I never said cultural imperialism is good.
Nathan Zumwalt:
Good call, Jeremy. My French professors have always told me that the best way to learn a language was to immerse myself in it. Wouldn't this be better than teaching ebonics?
Portia Rosiere:
I do feel that it is enough of a problem that students should be helped in school. If they do not learn the proper way to converse with the rest of America, they will be stuck in the slums forever. By not having ebonics recognized as another language, we are not robbing them of their culture. It is not against the law to speak that way, the still can whenever they want.
Daniel Anderson:
Jeremy, I agree that anything might be pushed to the extreme, but I'd argue that there already is cajonics. If you went to a Cajon learning environment, you might be hard pressed to understand what was going on. Teachers most likely use a dialect that we wouldn;t be able to handle. I thinkthe debate is about formally recognizing these kinds of language differences.
Daniel Anderson:
Jessica, no I didn't mean to imply that you were advocating cultural imperialism. I just wanted to point out that the same issues exist on many different scales.
Mandy Fuerst:
I think Shannon has a good idea in teaching Ebonics along with a standardized English class to students who struggle with English. I don't feel that it is beneficial to teach Ebonics, then English.
Amy Dickson:
schools with these language barriors have a long hard road ahead of them. if they do not have them working towards speaking a language understood by all then what are they doing. they have also just passed a rule that forbids teachers to give any student a grade of less than a 50% even if they fail to come to school or turn in any assignments - what kind of school system is this anyway?
Daniel Anderson:
Portia, are you saying that a "dont ask dont tell" policy would be just as effective a way of teaching english using ebonics? If so what do we lose by not formally accepting the language?
Shannon Miller:
Ellen:
I was not referring to immigrants at all. I was referring to the people who basically use Ebonics already. The ones who have trouble learning standarized English b/c they have been taught to speak differently b/c of their cultural background.
Judd Gilbert:
All the anti-ebonics folk: I think you should speak the language of your enviroment. If you don't know it, you need to learn it. If you came to my job, and I asked you to take some flouorometer measurements of coffee creamer using a quarter-wave plate, you wouldn't know what I was talking about. It wouldn't be because you are stupid or uneducated, just that you don't know the language. To be effective you would have to learn the language. Shouldn't these California teachers be effective?
Chris Radebaugh:
I've got a fantastic idea. Maybe we should recognize pig latin as a language
too...and jive, and ....
Jeremy Fleishman:
I think there should be no debate about recognizing language differences....how many different cultures are there present in this country? I shudder to think each one would have it's own language department. As if schools don't have small enough budgets already.
Maria Olin:
I agree with Jessica and Nathan that culture comes from within your family and personal environments. Schools are intended to put students in a more objective environment where they can learn to adapt to and deal with our national cultural diversity. So, no ebonics should not be taught in schools. I don't think any of the professionals are saying it should. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the whole point here is simply to recognize there is a tremendous difference in where these students are coming from compared to most white Americans. So, in order to learn standard English, they need to take a different approach. This is what we all do in our Spanish and French classes. Our teachers do not teach us the same way that native speakers learn. We are coming from a different place and need to hear a certain kind of logic to understand. The same may be true for many African Americans who have not grown up listening to standard English. They are not native speakers of standard English. Just like the hispanic population needs English as a Second Language, so too do other non-native standard English speakers.
Jessica Marcoux:
Nathan and Jeremy both have a good point. I'd bet a lot of us in here that have taken their language requirements still can't speak fluently. Sometimes I can't even speak English fluently. One must definitely immerse.
Jeremy Fleishman:
Judd, If you grew up speaking "ebonics" i seriously doubt you'd need a class to teach you how to speak it properly.
Daniel Anderson:
Mandy, I think you are right that teaching them alongside each other makes the most sense. and as to Amy's point about the long hard road ahead of schools I say yes. But it should be noted that the calls for Ebonics come from the teachers who are working with these students. Isn't it a bit arrogant to say, well we know whatis best and you should all be learning by assimilating the standard language
?
Judd Gilbert:
Jeremy: I understand the debate about ebonics, is that the teachers need to learn it, not the students. That way the teachers can cummunicate effectively in the classroom. Am I wrong?
Shannon Miller:
Portia is right. People will be stuck in the slums forever and will have even less of a chance to get out if they do not know the accepted English language. Why should schools teach something that gives students less of a chance to succeed? I thought the purpose going to school was to improve yourself so you had a chance at a good future.
Ellen Lin:
I think Judd made a good point. It would help the students a lot if the teachers can speak a little ebonics and therefore, speed up the teaching process.
Daniel Anderson:
Maria, I see a contradiction in your point, If schools are supposed to help students deal with our natiional diversity, how does prescribing a single language acheive this? The real debate may be less about the pragmatics of how to get students to learn in the classroom. Much of society could care less about what happens in the public schools, unless it impacts them personally...nobody's really wathching teachers do their job, so they could teach ebonics if they thought it would help, maybe. Another debate is about culture and diversity and conformity and social relations. This is where tough decisions and honesty need to happen. If standar english wipes out diversity but is necessary for economic security, then let's approach it that way.
Jeremy Fleishman:
you're parially right...yes, teachers doo need to learn some sort of slang, just as the students need to learn a new way to speak
Amy Dickson:
it doesn't work at all like it should. i am observing a classroom at travis highschool and the students that do not know engilsh are just thrown into the classroom, i ask them a question and another student must interpret what i have said. the teachers cannot speak their language, so what good is it to integrate students into the classroom without supplemental help.
Judd Gilbert:
Perhaps what is needed is higher paid teachers with more skills, Dan, you looking for a new job?
Jessica Marcoux:
Keep in mind private schools don't have this dilema. They wouldn't think of teaching Ebonics.
Portia Rosiere:
Not a don't ask don't tell, more of a don't care. I feel we should recognize the students who need help, and address their problems, but I don't feel that the proper way to do that is to try glorify the problem. Many other students have problems in the same areas, but not ebonics. We have programs to help them, and I think that we should have programs to help these students.
Chris Radebaugh:
Ebonics is a much more logical way of speaking, we go they go he goes no that is not logical he go makes more sense give it 30 years and it will be done