Daniel Anderson:
Yes, Randy, we're listening, tell us about your childhood :-)). Just kidding. Here we go with the
discussion of family values and other related topics. In Dan Quayle's now famous Murphy Brown
speech, he cites the decline in morals and family values as being responsible for the decay of
the inner cities. He considers the underclass to be a new problem that corresponds with recent
increases in illegitamcy among urban blacks, and divorce and the break-up of the traditional
family. This increase is driven, Quayle suggests, by a "poverty of values." Katha Pollitt,
on the other hand takes issue with Quayle's attack on Murphy Brown, criticizing him for being
unable to distinguish between fiction and reality and for trying to force all individuals into
the same mold. family values----Whose values? Pollitt makes the point that raving against
having a child out of wedlock is hypocritical when spoken by the same voice that condemns
abortion. In addition, sometimes divorce may be better in the long run for families; an
abusive or unloving family is not necessarily better than an untraditional one. In fact,
if divorced men were made more responsible for child care and divorced women given the same
wages as men, children of divorcess would be OK. Who is right. There seem to be two, or at least
two, things going on here, that
I still don't think have been convincingly dealt with. 1. Is a question of cause and effect. What is really responsible for the difficulties in inner cities and with american families. The new economic demands force both parents to work, and threaten families, as much as a poverty of values. What about the underclass. Is it really a new phenomenon? exactly how did lack of values bring it about. Wat about the idea that money will fix things? 2. the second thing that needs to be dealt with has to do with the definition of things like family and values. Sure we all agree that senseless killing is wrong...there are absolutes...but what about the definitions that must be negotiated every day. Hard work is a great value, but what if both parents work twelve hours a day and have their children in day care? is that giving the children the best environment. family and values are simple terms applied to very complex things. Let's begin by thinking about these two strains. The cause and effect relationship between values and family structure and the rest of our society and the definition of these terms. What do you guys think?
Heather Leonard:
I think that family values have alot to do with the American family as a whole.
If a child has a supportive family then they will grow up to be a good citizen.
But of course it doesn't matter what KIND of family they grow up in as long as it
is supportive.
Daniel Anderson:
What kind of support do you have in mind, Heather. One problem that was mentioned was
that men tend to receive most of the $ in dovorce case and often fail to pay dchild
support. I wonder why. Do they lack values?
Natasha Ann Rogers:
This is a hard situiation to specify the exact cause of all the dysfunctional
families in America. But what i do know, is that good family values cannot make
the problem worse.
Daniel Anderson:
Good point, Natasha, worrying about the cause does not alleviate the responsibility to
try and find a solution. Unless, we won't find a real solution without knowing the
cause.
McLain Robertson Hall:
This does not nessesarily apply to all cases, but I had a black friend in Los Angeles
would grew up in a single parent home. I was never clear if his parents were ever
married or not. His father lived in Seattle. By the age of 16 he was the father of
two illegitamate children. So in my mind a case for a father was made qite strong.
Ryan Schuchart:
Both Quayle and Pollit had some good ideas--I really think they did--however, both of
them seemed to run themselves into the ground. Quayle says to keep traditional values
in check, while Pollit understands that the society we live in is not constant and is
ever-changing and that we need to adapt. Maybe there could be a combination of both?
Kimberly A. Rucker:
Everyone has their own ideas of family values. The government should not be allowd
to tell us what a "correct family" is like. Families come in all shapes and sizes,
as long as the parents or parent are loving and supportive who cares how big or
complete the family is. If the one parent family is not working for that child and
the child is in a family situation where he or she is not physically or mentally
safe, then the government can step in. Untill then, they should have no say in
the type of family a child is raised in.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam:
It depends on the individual case, if the person in question is already, barely
able to make ends meet then how will he be also able to pay for the child support.
Randy Samuelson:
Dan the Man Quayle is right. The reason that the inner cities are having so many
problems is because nobody gives a damn about the kids. They are allowed to join
gangs, committ crimes, and grow up without an education and think that America is
giving them the shaft. There situations are unique. The fathers are no where to
be found and the mothers have to work to support the kids. Who's left to raise the
kids? Snoop Doggy Dogg and Beavis and Butthead. What great role models. We need
to get back to the nuclear families of the 50's if we want our problems to get solved.
Natasha Ann Rogers:
It isn't that men lack values, it is just they don't feel that they are as
responsible for the kid's upbringing because they are not the one s having the baby.
Richard Vu:
I agree with Heather. If a child has a supporting family, no matter what kind of
family, that child will generally turn out well.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam:
How can you generalize the case to all men, Natasha ?
Katherine E. Braxton:
Kimberly, I agree all families have different values and the gov't should not
interfer with those values unless someone is in potintial harm.
Kristina Martinez:
I think it is insulting to women to say that children can't be brought up properly
without a man in the house. It makes it sound like women are inadequate parents.
A husband has not always guaranteed a positive role model or a safe,loving enviroment.
Ryan Schuchart:
The nuclear family of the 50's was a fluke, Samuelson; many families were unhappy and
abused, more than most people care to think about or remember.
Daniel Anderson:
Randy, what kind of things do you thing would help the problem.How feasable is the
nuclear famjily of the 50's when the unemployment rate for inner city men is probably
at over 50 percent. You can't be a Beaver Cleaver father, if you can't find a job.
Heather Leonard:
Daniel- the kind of support that I have in mind is one that doesn't cost any money,
pure love and nuturing ,values that every human being desires. Of course however there
is a monetary setback, which is why tougher laws need to be ENFORCED to make the
fathers pay the child support on a regular basis . If the dad doesn't pay obviously
there is a problem with the values of that individual but it shouldn't generalize the
whole subclass.
Randy Samuelson:
McLain backs up my original point here. Kids have kids and then leave them. At 16
you can barely drive a car and you already have two kids to support. What does the
father do, he splits and leaves the mother(s) to raise the kids on their own.
Kent Park:
Kristina, there's nothing insulting about that. It's very close to being a fact.
I'm not saying a husband is a guaranteed positive role model, but it certaintly
helps to have a male role model AS WELL as a femal role model.
Kimberly A. Rucker:
Even the richest families have messed up kids. Money does not matter.
Katherine E. Braxton:
Kristina, I agree it is liking saying a child can't be brought up properly without
a wowan in the house. A good parent is a good parent no matter what the gender.
Daniel Anderson:
Kristina...good point, in fact, many times the women in families are the ones doing
most of ther parenting anyway. One problem is that single women have to work as well
ass take ccare of the kids. What about the single mom who is being threatend with
losing her child because she is atternding college and must put the child in day care?
Zulema Marie Vasquez:
Sometimes it not the mother who raises the kids, I know of many guys who are bringing
up the kids on their own because the mother left town. Who is being irresponsible
in these cases?
Daniel Anderson:
Kimberly, if money does not matter, then what is the cause of the disfuntionality of
so many inner city families. There aren't enough role-models true enough, but what
caused that to happen?
Ritu Singh:
RANDY- if we get back to the nuclear families of the 50 then we are going to have to
go through another sixties!! do you think America could handle another sexual
revolution??
McLain Robertson Hall:
Some problems with society is that every type of dicipline is child abuse. How can
we raise good upstanding children without any type of diciplinary measures.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam:
That is because between her college and work (assuming she has to support the child)
she will not be able to give enough attention to the child, that is why in the best
interest it is better to leave the child in day care.
Kimberly A. Rucker:
Day care is huge problem for the lower class. Those on wellfare can't afford daycare
so they can't go out and get jobs, how efficient is that? How well can family values
play in that?
Kristina Martinez:
Daniel, I don't think a single mom should be punished for taking the responsibilities
the father didn't. There's nothing wrong with day care. A mother has to do what she
has to do to provide for her children. At least she's making the effort.
Daniel Anderson:
Jai, what about the mother's right to try an better her life. Should trying to get
ahgead discredit one from being a parent. How many fathers would be disallowed custody
rights if this were true.
Kent Park:
What about the rest of the family? Shouldn't the grandmother and grandfater come
into
Natasha Ann Rogers:
Kent, why is it the mother that shopuld stay home for at least a year? Where is the
father? are they incompetant or something? I hate it when people assume that the
mother should the one stayinmg home with the kids.
Randy Samuelson:
See, now there's 2 that agree with me. Michael and Ryan.
Nick Hildebrandt:
Ritu- the people whose parents have died need some way to support the child. One
person just can't handle a full time job and the full time job of parenting alone.
Suppport systems may help but they can only go so far.
Michael Heath Haley:
That is definitely true Kimberly, however, I do look up to my mother and father and
I do follow their lead sometimes.
Michael Nunez:
A mature age ,Zulema,can not be defined as a static number.It is
different for everyone.Believe me,your parents can tell when
you have reached it!
Kent Park:
Maybe we should have less role models and more of people who will discipline and
keep the kids in a straight path. "Force" them into it.
Daniel Anderson:
Michael, your point about turining out fine in a single parent household also makes
me think of the trouble with simplifying things too much. Marriage in America is not
going to solve all of the porblems of viloence and troubles in the inner ciooty.
There has to be more tangible policies and attmpts to deal with our problems.
Heather Leonard:
Kent- love shouldn't be FORCED.
Randy Samuelson:
Another excellent point Kent. The first 2 years of a child's life is the most
important.
Ritu Singh:
ryan, why do we have to have a plan at all? are we trying to make everybody with
their different situations conform to one ideal setting?? one blanket cannot cover
everybody. someone will allways be left out in the cold. what are you going to do
about them??
Kimberly A. Rucker:
Why don't the fathers stay home for the first two years, why does the mother have to
do it?
Sara Dever:
Go Kim
Kent Park:
Heather, who said anything about love? I said disicpline should be forced.
Randy Samuelson:
Richard, if I had a child, I would want him to see the World Series this year.
Richard Vu:
Why is it that it has to be your parents can tell you? Parents are not some kind of
god or wise one to look up to. They can make mistakes too.
Katherine E. Braxton:
What kind of "force"?
Michael Heath Haley:
Because they don't pay women enough, right? Isn't that what everybody argues about!!!
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam:
How exactly are you going to "force" the kids into following the straight path Kent?
Kent Park:
Kimberly, because...sad as it is, mothers usually know how to handle a baby better then
men. It's a natrual thing....
Heather Leonard:
Kent ,with discipline there needs to be a certain amount of respect and caring
involved. Besides this is a free nation no one should be forced to do anything.
Jaime La Fuente:
Alot of times parents are around and they treat their kids good, yet the kids decide
to turn their own way. I know alot of kids that just rebel. Maybe they do not intend
to but they just see it as their path in life. Parents always being there never
guarantees anything anymore.
Nick Hildebrandt:
Ritu- We have a serious problem that is going to cause many more serious problems if
we don't attack it soon. We need a plan to lessen the problem!!!
Zulema Marie Vasquez:
But how? How would you know if your child has reached a mature age? Do you agree
that there are alot of things your parents don't know about you? Say your're mistakes
that may think that you're still a kid and have alot to learn. I know people who
always put up a facad to their parents that their parents have no idea that their kids
are just plain hoodlums
Daniel Anderson:
As an aside on the idea that mothers should stay home and take care of the kid. Does
our society make any allowances for any of this. If a father or mother wanted to stay
home, he might not be allowed to---s/he would lose his/her job after six weeks. In
Sweden parents get at least six months off to raise the family., That's family values
driven by the govern,ment, but the sup[posed proponents fo family vlaues would cringe
at asuch an expensive idea. Talk versus walk.
Kimberly A. Rucker:
BS, Kent. A new mother has no more idea than you or me.
Richard Vu:
I would much rather see the World Series then any Lion KIng. To bad it is not going
to happen Randy.
Ritu Singh:
Richard, ofcourse parents make mistakes, they are only human beings afterall. but
atleast they try to do things that are in the best interest of the children.
Katherine E. Braxton:
Well they don't pay women enough it is a FACT!
Ryan Schuchart:
Daniel, there already are tangible policies, but are they working? I mean we can feel
them and seem them and all that, but are they working for everybody. I think what we
really need to do is sit down and think about all the possibilities, and all the
reasons why and then take a shot in the dark because (and this may sound cynical),
it's going to take a whole damn lot to cure our problems.
Randy Samuelson:
Richard, parents can and have made mistakes too. But, they have made the same
mistakes you have made and have learned from them. They can pass that on to the next
generation.
Natasha Ann Rogers:
Kent, maybe it is a natural thing for a father to take care of the kid too, but they
never got the chance to find out because they thought it was so natural for the mother.
Kent Park:
Jai, I'm thinking sending "troubled" kids into the military. Believe me, it will
make a difference.
Kristina Martinez:
I have to agree with kent on this one. Women have a special bond with their children.
They are the only person the child knows when he or she comes into the world.
Jai Kumar Subrahmanyam:
Daniel, at least if the person in question is married he will not be going around town
selling drugs or shooting down people. Since he will have other responsibilities, to
take care of his kid and wife.
Kent Park:
BS Kimberly, It's a natural thing. Just look at nature and other animals. I know
we're not exactly animals, but there's still a relationship. It's natural for the
female to bring up the young.
Daniel Anderson:
kent.. Did you know that seahorse have sex, and then the eggs are transferred to the
male, who bears the children. I'd be careful about tryiong to ascribe things to nature.
someone might say violence is natural, and whack you on the head, or greed, or
whatever,.. Humans are not just biology.
Daniel Anderson:
kent.. Did you know that seahorse have sex, and then the eggs are transferred to the
male, who bears the children. I'd be careful about tryiong to ascribe things to nature.
someone might say violence is natural, and whack you on the head, or greed, or
whatever,.. Humans are not just biology.
Michael Nunez:
Zulema,youre parents know when you are close to maturity.They are not
deceived by as much as you think.Some bad apples slip through,but for
the most part it should work.
Melissa Talamantes:
Melissa Talamantes:
As far as whom should stay home with the baby, mom or dad, I think you have to look
at who's income is most needed and who would be the best at caring for the child. You
can't expect the mom who is a superior judge to stay home and change diapers while
construction worker dad goes away every morning.
Richard Vu:
Ritu, things in the best intrest for the child is not always best. If your parents
had finanical diffculites and left you with realtives and you didn't see them for a
number of years, is it in the best intrest of the child?
Ryan Schuchart:
Hey Park, that sounds like a good idea. But at the same time, it's scary: what if
they start shooting eachother. I wouldn't feel too safe then.
Katherine E. Braxton:
Parents ,also make the mistake of abuse, Randy, so should they pass that down from
one generation to the next?
Nick Hildebrandt:
Daniel- of couse no one solution is going to solve our problems. Illegitimasy is a
multifaceted nightmare. Many different solutions are necessary such as two people who
are parenting and working and something to help single parents into a two parent
relationship without forcingthem.
Ritu Singh:
kent, who are the troubled kids?? the drug addicts, the gang members, the cjuvenile
criminals or kids being raised by a single parent??
Kimberly A. Rucker:
Maybe for the first month or two but after that the father can just as easily do as
good as a job as mom.
Kristina Martinez:
There's is nothing wrong with the Lion King!!!
Ritu Singh:
kent, who are the troubled kids?? the drug addicts, the gang members, the cjuvenile
criminals or kids being raised by a single parent??
Ritu Singh:
kent, who are the troubled kids?? the drug addicts, the gang members, the cjuvenile
criminals or kids being raised by a single parent??
Sara Dever:
Everybody puts so much emphasis on marriage. It is not the answer to all of these
problems. Many times it is the reason to all these problems.
Daniel Anderson:
Melissa, your point about the best income working needs to be extended toward the
ideas of values genreal, they must remain flexible, if everyone is going to be covered
by theri definitions.
Daniel Anderson:
Melissa, your point about the best income working needs to be extended toward the
ideas of values genreal, they must remain flexible, if everyone is going to be covered
by theri definitions.
Randy Samuelson:
That's the problem with our society. We care too much about work and not enough
about what is really important, the next generation (not Star Trek).
Michael Heath Haley:
ByeBye!!!
Katherine E. Braxton:
So what do you do about a troubled 5 year old
Kimberly A. Rucker:
see ya!
Kent Park:
I agree Daniel. There will always be exceptions, but in the majority of the case,
it's true. Violence is natural....
Richard Vu:
Kristina: THe jackals repsent the disenchanted black youths and Scar is supposed to be
a latent homosexual. Waht do you think of that. Plus you se Musfa die on screen.